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	<title>Comments on: Amazonfail: Post-Mortem</title>
	<atom:link href="http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/</link>
	<description>Dissecting the publishing industry with love and skepticism</description>
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		<title>By: Wyman</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169757</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 02:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169757</guid>
		<description>Amazon is big and powerful and needs to answer to no one, just as Citibank, Bank of America, AIG, and General Motors answered to no one.  They know all of you will be back, so why apologize.  Some clerk clicked &quot;yes&quot; one turn too soon and zapped untold items into a wrong category.  Once done you don&#039;t get to flip it back.  This is the power that Amazon, Google and others too, are gaining over all people.  Big Brother comes in many forms, but the Biggest Big Brother will control them all and us too.  

When your genetic code can be patented, then sold back to you in the form of a cure, do you think books and authors will be treated any differently?  Books and Writers are commodities.  Think about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazon is big and powerful and needs to answer to no one, just as Citibank, Bank of America, AIG, and General Motors answered to no one.  They know all of you will be back, so why apologize.  Some clerk clicked &#8220;yes&#8221; one turn too soon and zapped untold items into a wrong category.  Once done you don&#8217;t get to flip it back.  This is the power that Amazon, Google and others too, are gaining over all people.  Big Brother comes in many forms, but the Biggest Big Brother will control them all and us too.  </p>
<p>When your genetic code can be patented, then sold back to you in the form of a cure, do you think books and authors will be treated any differently?  Books and Writers are commodities.  Think about it.</p>
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		<title>By: What I Wish I Had Known Before Writing My First Book - by Joanna Penn &#124; The Creative Penn</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169656</link>
		<dc:creator>What I Wish I Had Known Before Writing My First Book - by Joanna Penn &#124; The Creative Penn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169656</guid>
		<description>[...] to hold stock. It is practically free! Wow! This was (and still is) so exciting to me! Despite the #AmazonFail debacle, Amazon still provides an amazing service to readers and authors all over the world.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to hold stock. It is practically free! Wow! This was (and still is) so exciting to me! Despite the #AmazonFail debacle, Amazon still provides an amazing service to readers and authors all over the world.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kassia Krozser</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169651</link>
		<dc:creator>Kassia Krozser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169651</guid>
		<description>I think we all agree that Amazon has a right to run its sales as it deems appropriate for its business, and I&#039;d guess (having no knowledge of the industry I&#039;m going to reference :)) that the adult film industry, when doing business with Amazon, knows its products will receive the adult designation. This is likely commonplace for quite a few products being sold on Amazon. The flag exists, and I seriously doubt Amazon will change its policy. If I am understanding the pieces, generally, the adult tag comes from the vendor, not Amazon. What we now know is that this flag can be switched by employees (again, not an outrage) either due to consumer complaint or other internal decision.

What we do not know is how &quot;adult&quot; is defined; in the situation of Amazonfail, it was clear that one employee (again, absolutely no indication at this point of intentional malice) defined certain terms as adult. As Kat points out, when this happens, and products are effectively removed from search rankings, Amazon&#039;s position as a major player in book search and contributor to Bookscan come into play (this is why I pointed out the authors who had books released and impacted by this -- they truly do not get do-overs, and this failure on the part of Amazon could have lasting repercussions. This was a side effect of the 9/11 attacks as well, things happen outside the control of the author/publisher; a horrific, horrible tragedy for all of us, but so very personal for some). 

In response to the final point, the fact that they can essentially disable a person&#039;s Kindle account (and take away their purchases -- though &lt;a href=&quot;http://medialoper.com/hot-topics/drm/amazons-kindle-disclosure-policies-could-attract-ftc-attention/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kirk noted in his article today&lt;/a&gt; some broader issues as well) hasn&#039;t engendered trust. I know that I don&#039;t really own the books I purchase for my Kindle, not at least in the same sense I own a paper book, but as long as I&#039;m abiding by the terms of my license, disabling access is extremely problematic. Especially in a week when Amazon is getting so much bad press.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we all agree that Amazon has a right to run its sales as it deems appropriate for its business, and I&#8217;d guess (having no knowledge of the industry I&#8217;m going to reference <img src='http://booksquare.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ) that the adult film industry, when doing business with Amazon, knows its products will receive the adult designation. This is likely commonplace for quite a few products being sold on Amazon. The flag exists, and I seriously doubt Amazon will change its policy. If I am understanding the pieces, generally, the adult tag comes from the vendor, not Amazon. What we now know is that this flag can be switched by employees (again, not an outrage) either due to consumer complaint or other internal decision.</p>
<p>What we do not know is how &#8220;adult&#8221; is defined; in the situation of Amazonfail, it was clear that one employee (again, absolutely no indication at this point of intentional malice) defined certain terms as adult. As Kat points out, when this happens, and products are effectively removed from search rankings, Amazon&#8217;s position as a major player in book search and contributor to Bookscan come into play (this is why I pointed out the authors who had books released and impacted by this &#8212; they truly do not get do-overs, and this failure on the part of Amazon could have lasting repercussions. This was a side effect of the 9/11 attacks as well, things happen outside the control of the author/publisher; a horrific, horrible tragedy for all of us, but so very personal for some). </p>
<p>In response to the final point, the fact that they can essentially disable a person&#8217;s Kindle account (and take away their purchases &#8212; though <a href="http://medialoper.com/hot-topics/drm/amazons-kindle-disclosure-policies-could-attract-ftc-attention/" rel="nofollow">Kirk noted in his article today</a> some broader issues as well) hasn&#8217;t engendered trust. I know that I don&#8217;t really own the books I purchase for my Kindle, not at least in the same sense I own a paper book, but as long as I&#8217;m abiding by the terms of my license, disabling access is extremely problematic. Especially in a week when Amazon is getting so much bad press.</p>
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		<title>By: Stan Scott</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169650</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169650</guid>
		<description>As long as you do a search on &quot;homosexuality on the Amazon.com site (see below), and get the current book list, it&#039;s too soon for a &quot;post-morten&quot;.

http://bit.ly/LLIvc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long as you do a search on &#8220;homosexuality on the Amazon.com site (see below), and get the current book list, it&#8217;s too soon for a &#8220;post-morten&#8221;.</p>
<p><a href="http://bit.ly/LLIvc" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/LLIvc</a></p>
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		<title>By: KatG</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169649</link>
		<dc:creator>KatG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169649</guid>
		<description>Well, I kind of agree with Cronin -- Amazon sells books however they want to (or doesn&#039;t sell them.) Once they buy the books, the publishers and authors have no further say what Amazon does with them, including not selling them and calling them adult.  Publishers may have a lawsuit claim if they paid for promotions which the glitch then did not carry out, but otherwise, suppliers to Amazon have no dominion. 

But there are two problems -- one is that, intended or not, Amazon is contributing to discrimination and prejudice against the gay community by the fact that things that mention homosexuality, such as gay memoirs, have to be labeled by them with something -- if not adult, then sexuality, whereas heterosexual memoirs do not necessarily. Heather Has Two Mommies is not about sex, it&#039;s a kid&#039;s book about families. The only label it should ever have in an equal world is children&#039;s. So we can indeed protest and complain about Amazon&#039;s policies there, even if we have no control over those policies. 

The second problem is the fact that Amazon is the Google search of books (and for that matter, that Google is the Google of search engines.) It&#039;s dominance of the on-line market for books, while justly earned, is becoming more and more of a problem because people also use it as a reference source as there&#039;s not much else out there that is as comprehensive. So what Amazon does matters not just as a company selling book, but as a major database on the Internet. They essentially have an effect, if not control, on information about books. This status may change, however. Try out ISBNdb.com. 

As a linked issue, there is also BookScan, where the book world is trying to be fit into a Nielsen ratings system. Amazon, as a major vendor, is part of the BookScan numbers which can effect book orders, authors getting book deals, and many other things. So Amazon&#039;s mess up can cost authors and publishers not just short term sales loss, but potentially long term damage. So authors and publishers have a right to complain about Amazon compiles their data and does their sales rankings, even if they have no control over those things. 

On a Kindle related note, here is why I&#039;m not buying a Kindle: http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/04/16/report-amazon-kill-s.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I kind of agree with Cronin &#8212; Amazon sells books however they want to (or doesn&#8217;t sell them.) Once they buy the books, the publishers and authors have no further say what Amazon does with them, including not selling them and calling them adult.  Publishers may have a lawsuit claim if they paid for promotions which the glitch then did not carry out, but otherwise, suppliers to Amazon have no dominion. </p>
<p>But there are two problems &#8212; one is that, intended or not, Amazon is contributing to discrimination and prejudice against the gay community by the fact that things that mention homosexuality, such as gay memoirs, have to be labeled by them with something &#8212; if not adult, then sexuality, whereas heterosexual memoirs do not necessarily. Heather Has Two Mommies is not about sex, it&#8217;s a kid&#8217;s book about families. The only label it should ever have in an equal world is children&#8217;s. So we can indeed protest and complain about Amazon&#8217;s policies there, even if we have no control over those policies. </p>
<p>The second problem is the fact that Amazon is the Google search of books (and for that matter, that Google is the Google of search engines.) It&#8217;s dominance of the on-line market for books, while justly earned, is becoming more and more of a problem because people also use it as a reference source as there&#8217;s not much else out there that is as comprehensive. So what Amazon does matters not just as a company selling book, but as a major database on the Internet. They essentially have an effect, if not control, on information about books. This status may change, however. Try out ISBNdb.com. </p>
<p>As a linked issue, there is also BookScan, where the book world is trying to be fit into a Nielsen ratings system. Amazon, as a major vendor, is part of the BookScan numbers which can effect book orders, authors getting book deals, and many other things. So Amazon&#8217;s mess up can cost authors and publishers not just short term sales loss, but potentially long term damage. So authors and publishers have a right to complain about Amazon compiles their data and does their sales rankings, even if they have no control over those things. </p>
<p>On a Kindle related note, here is why I&#8217;m not buying a Kindle: <a href="http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/04/16/report-amazon-kill-s.html" rel="nofollow">http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/04/16/report-amazon-kill-s.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: blog.rightreading.com &#187; Friday roundup</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169648</link>
		<dc:creator>blog.rightreading.com &#187; Friday roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169648</guid>
		<description>[...] Amazonfail: Post-Mortem &#124; Booksquare [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Amazonfail: Post-Mortem | Booksquare [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bhetti</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169645</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169645</guid>
		<description>1) The current model for media (e.g. the film industry) is to use Independent authorities to rate the products and classify them based on this. A corporation should not be making the decisions itself. This will invariably lead to the disagreements we see.
2) Books should not be censored. I don&#039;t see censorship of them in bookstores (maybe being placed in a high shelf?) and I don&#039;t expect them to be censored on a website which only those of the age of consent can realistically use to buy anything. 
3)Amazon sells more than books but has and will lose consumers over this issue. It may come as a surprise to people, but I think everyone had a level of trust in Amazon that they weren&#039;t aware of until it was challenged. Part of its allure was easy access to any book you wanted that is in print or even out of it, access that can&#039;t be matched by a bookstore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) The current model for media (e.g. the film industry) is to use Independent authorities to rate the products and classify them based on this. A corporation should not be making the decisions itself. This will invariably lead to the disagreements we see.<br />
2) Books should not be censored. I don&#8217;t see censorship of them in bookstores (maybe being placed in a high shelf?) and I don&#8217;t expect them to be censored on a website which only those of the age of consent can realistically use to buy anything.<br />
3)Amazon sells more than books but has and will lose consumers over this issue. It may come as a surprise to people, but I think everyone had a level of trust in Amazon that they weren&#8217;t aware of until it was challenged. Part of its allure was easy access to any book you wanted that is in print or even out of it, access that can&#8217;t be matched by a bookstore.</p>
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		<title>By: ReacherFan</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169644</link>
		<dc:creator>ReacherFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169644</guid>
		<description>Sorry I have &#039;no objection&#039; to a filter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I have &#8216;no objection&#8217; to a filter</p>
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		<title>By: ReacherFan</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169643</link>
		<dc:creator>ReacherFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169643</guid>
		<description>Flagging products and creating an &#039;adult zone&#039; for truly adult material is one thing.  Applying that flag for books written for children (Heather Has Two Mommies) and to gay BDSM seem ridiculous.  THAT&#039;S what what bothers me.  There is only one possible flag for that, and it isn&#039;t &#039;adult&#039;.  That is the simple reason why I do not and cannot buy into their &#039;flag&#039; line.  Given the broad range of books de-ranked there was one common denominator and it wasn&#039;t &#039;adult&#039;.  It seemed &#039;adult&#039; ended up be a subset of the larger field.  That&#039;s why things like menage books were actually re-ranked later in the cycle.

Should Amazon feels the need to apply an adult filter, I actually have objection, just give me a way to register to turn OFF the filer.  That&#039;s very reasonable.  I can enter some pretty &#039;adult&#039; sites just by clicking a button saying I&#039;m over 18.  Certainly there are better places for kids to find &#039;adult content&#039; than tame old Amazon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flagging products and creating an &#8216;adult zone&#8217; for truly adult material is one thing.  Applying that flag for books written for children (Heather Has Two Mommies) and to gay BDSM seem ridiculous.  THAT&#8217;S what what bothers me.  There is only one possible flag for that, and it isn&#8217;t &#8216;adult&#8217;.  That is the simple reason why I do not and cannot buy into their &#8216;flag&#8217; line.  Given the broad range of books de-ranked there was one common denominator and it wasn&#8217;t &#8216;adult&#8217;.  It seemed &#8216;adult&#8217; ended up be a subset of the larger field.  That&#8217;s why things like menage books were actually re-ranked later in the cycle.</p>
<p>Should Amazon feels the need to apply an adult filter, I actually have objection, just give me a way to register to turn OFF the filer.  That&#8217;s very reasonable.  I can enter some pretty &#8216;adult&#8217; sites just by clicking a button saying I&#8217;m over 18.  Certainly there are better places for kids to find &#8216;adult content&#8217; than tame old Amazon.</p>
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		<title>By: angryxer</title>
		<link>http://booksquare.com/amazonfail-post-mortem/comment-page-1/#comment-169641</link>
		<dc:creator>angryxer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://booksquare.com/?p=3211#comment-169641</guid>
		<description>Great post, Kassia, thank you. Clearly no point in trying to argue your point further with Cronin; he&#039;s clearly tone deaf, or willfully just digging in. Sounds like the man has no understanding of the publishing business. This isn&#039;t about proprietary issues; it&#039;s about an Amazon policy that quietly makes books disappear, without authors or publishers having any idea that such is happening. We&#039;re not asking them to explain the mysteries of sales ranks in the first place, or anything of the sort. Considering that complaints about delisted books began at least as early as February, this past weekend&#039;s &quot;glitch,&quot; as you said, only served to surface a larger problem. 

I&#039;m getting very tired of people saying &quot;it&#039;s a private company, it can do what it wants; you can buy your books elsewhere.&quot; Really? that&#039;s the point? Uh, yes, I will buy my books elsewhere, thank you very much, until such time as Amazon issues a proper apology/explanation. However. Amazon is essentially the Google of book searches. So imagine if people&#039;s websites suddenly started disappearing from Google&#039;s search results with prior warning. Think the response would be &quot;it&#039;s a private company, doesn&#039;t matter, it can do what it wants&quot;? No way. Well, maybe Cronin would.  But let&#039;s be realistic about the majority response. The issue is one of visibility, and it&#039;s a serious one given Amazon&#039;s monopoly on this realm  (B&amp;N, competitor? I think not! Dreadful website).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Kassia, thank you. Clearly no point in trying to argue your point further with Cronin; he&#8217;s clearly tone deaf, or willfully just digging in. Sounds like the man has no understanding of the publishing business. This isn&#8217;t about proprietary issues; it&#8217;s about an Amazon policy that quietly makes books disappear, without authors or publishers having any idea that such is happening. We&#8217;re not asking them to explain the mysteries of sales ranks in the first place, or anything of the sort. Considering that complaints about delisted books began at least as early as February, this past weekend&#8217;s &#8220;glitch,&#8221; as you said, only served to surface a larger problem. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m getting very tired of people saying &#8220;it&#8217;s a private company, it can do what it wants; you can buy your books elsewhere.&#8221; Really? that&#8217;s the point? Uh, yes, I will buy my books elsewhere, thank you very much, until such time as Amazon issues a proper apology/explanation. However. Amazon is essentially the Google of book searches. So imagine if people&#8217;s websites suddenly started disappearing from Google&#8217;s search results with prior warning. Think the response would be &#8220;it&#8217;s a private company, doesn&#8217;t matter, it can do what it wants&#8221;? No way. Well, maybe Cronin would.  But let&#8217;s be realistic about the majority response. The issue is one of visibility, and it&#8217;s a serious one given Amazon&#8217;s monopoly on this realm  (B&amp;N, competitor? I think not! Dreadful website).</p>
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